-- -- Phil Rand <prand_at_spu.edu>, aka <postmaster_at_spu.edu> -- http://www.spu.edu/users/prand (206) 281-2428 -- Computer and Information Systems -- Seattle Pacific University -- 3307 3rd Ave. W., Seattle, WA 98119 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From BAISLEY_at_vssaxp.fnal.gov Tue Dec 10 03:30:06 1996 I can provide some input. > Are the DEC DLT drives as good as the Quantum DLT drives? They're the same. As far as I know, DEC simply resells the same DLT drive, with the possible exception of some minor firmware tweaking (mostly to change the drive identification in response to a SCSI query). Quantum bought the tape and (most of the) disk drive unit from DEC a few years back. The facility and engineers in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts haven't changed much since then. They've even kept the same mail stop designation, SHR1-4. They have changed the manufacturing operations a good deal, though. Much of it has moved from Colorado to Japan. > What are your experiences with using Quantum DLTs with a Alphaserver? Mostly I've used DLT 2000s with VAXes and a DEC 4000 Model 500S, running VMS. Aside from a capacity problem early on, due to a manufacturing glitch, which was resolved with some impressive support for Quantum, we've been very pleased with the DLTs. Even with the diminished capacity problem, which turned out to be misaligned heads which suffered uneven wear, there was never any danger of lost data. The diminished capacity was caused by repeated rewriting of data blocks, virtually all of which were readable, even though the writing drive had doubts. It's that fanaticism about data integrity that makes the DLT the only real choice in my opinion. Some of our collaborators from Cornell University have also reported great satisfaction with DLTs. If the decisions were up to me (and they're not, alas ;-), I'd stick to DLT 7000s. Almost all other options are helical-scan drives, which all have the same potential for excessive head wear. We have been a huge customer for 8mm drives and tape, due exclusively to media costs (we typically buy ~75,000 cartridges per year). But 8mm gives us plenty of trouble, and if I never saw another one, it would be too soon. The one item I don't know about is what good software there is. I've just moved from VMS to Unix and sorely miss VMS BACKUP. FermiLab has some freely available software for controlling jukeboxes/stackers, if that's of any use to you. Another package called FMB (FerMilab Backup) may be available soon. It automates a good deal of the day-to-day stuff. You might want to look at: http://www.fnal.gov/fermitools/ If you're interested in FMB, you might send an inquiry to its author, Marc Mengel (mengel_at_fnal.gov), and ask him when it might become available via the FermiTools Software Repository. You can tell him I suggested the question. (There's the internet in action for you! Getting an Aussie to pass along a suggestion to someone 20 feet away from me!) I haven't tried it yet, but I suspect that booting the installation CD would be enough to allow you to restore a disk from a DLT (or 8mm, or DAT, for that matter). Hope that's helpful. Cheers, Wayne http://dcdsv0.fnal.gov:8000/~baisley/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From WALTERS_at_ad3100.ada.epa.gov Tue Dec 10 01:50:36 1996 The old DEC DLT were better than the Quantums. DEC sold out it tape drive systems to Quantum a couple of years ago. When the DLT's work they work well, but when the fail (hardware wise) it may take over 4 months to get one fixed by Quantum. We have had one drive in the shop more often than we have had it on site. On the other end one drive has only had a small problem with the tape leader in almost 2 years. On the average we have experience a failure of a Quantum DLT drive about once evry 3-4 months. They are great in the amount of data they can hold, and if you go that way besure to order 2 for every one you actually need. One to use and one for a backup. Using hindsight I wish we would have gotten HP 4mm DAT's We have only had one in the shop in the last five years. The tape autoloader broke shortly after it was out out warranty and HP still fixed it for free. I boils down to the convinence a large tape for backups or relability. Hopefully Quantum will get their act together and make more reliable tape drives or at least get a faster turn around on repairs. +------------------------------------------------+ | David Walters | | U.S. Environmental Protection Agency | | National Risk Managemant Research Laboratory | | Subsurface Protection and Remediation Division | | P.O. Box 1198 | | 919 Kerr Research Drive | | Ada, OK 74820 USA | +------------------------------------------------+ | email: walters_at_ad3100.ada.epa.gov | | EPA All-in-One: walters.david | | VAX mail: rskerl::walters | | Phone: (405) 436-8550 | | FAX: (405) 436-8703 | +------------------------------------------------+ | Why do we park on a driveway and | | drive on a parkway? | +------------------------------------------------+ | Standard Government disclaimers apply | +------------------------------------------------+ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From magill_at_staff.dccs.upenn.edu Tue Dec 10 01:24:25 1996 > What about libraries? We just installed an MTI Infinity 1530 library. (28 slots/Breece Hill robotics/2 quantum DLT 20/40 drives) As I'm writing this, it is doing its first backup of 6 assorted machines over our new 100mb backup network. Aside from pain in the ass setup problems (lack of documentation) all has been good, so far. I've got the Infinity on a 1000A with two 100/10 ethernet interfces. The "backup network" is a 100 MB 10bT network using 3com switches. At the moment it inter-connects 6 systems; a mix of 100mb 2100's and 10mb (turbo channel) 3000/400&600. (Including one in another building... our campus bacbone is 115 miles of fiber) When finished, it will interconnect a total of 4 2100s, 3 1000s, 2 3000/400, 2 3000/600, and a random assortment of other machines from Ultrix mips to SUN and HP. All systems are Network Infrastructure machines (nameservice/timeservice/ news server/central web server/central Postoffice for faculty.) We're using Digital's Polycenter Network Save and Restore (ie legatto). T.T.F.N. William H. Magill Senior Systems Administrator Information Services and Computing (ISC) University of Pennsylvania Internet: magill_at_isc.upenn.edu magill_at_acm.org magill_at_upenn.edu http://pobox.upenn.edu/~magill/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From magill_at_staff.dccs.upenn.edu Tue Dec 10 01:06:06 1996 > Are the DEC DLT drives as good as the Quantum DLT drives? There is no longer such a thing as a DEC DLT drive. DEC sold it's magnetics divion to Quantum about a year/18 months back. T.T.F.N. William H. Magill Senior Systems Administrator Information Services and Computing (ISC) University of Pennsylvania Internet: magill_at_isc.upenn.edu magill_at_acm.org magill_at_upenn.edu http://pobox.upenn.edu/~magill/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From shollen_at_valhalla.cs.wright.edu Mon Dec 9 23:51:53 1996 DLT is wonderful. I think the DEC is probably a relabeled Quantum, though I am not absolutely sure of that. We have two DLT jukeboxes, and don't know how we ever survived without them. One has a DEC label and one has an SGI label, but they both look the same. We are using Networker for backups. -- Sheila Hollenbaugh Sr. Computer Systems Engineer (O-) Wright State University College of Engineering & Computer Science Dayton, OH 45435 http://www.cs.wright.edu/people/staff/shollen/ shollen_at_cs.wright.edu Voice: (937) 775-5077 FAX: (937) 775-5009 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From jason_at_dstc.edu.au Mon Dec 9 23:43:55 1996 In dstc.mail.alpha-osf-managers you write: >Hi, > we are considering moving to a DLT drive to backup a rapidly >growing raid array on a AS 2100(4/200). >Currently its at 12GB, but once we bring the other two ports in to >use that will probably grow to: >swxcr 230 raid array(three port pci) >7x2GB 12GB(current) >7x4GB 24GB >7x4GB 24GB > ----- > 60GB at least >currently I'm switching tapes all day with a tlz06 dat drive! >Are the DEC DLT drives as good as the Quantum DLT drives? dec sold their DLT business to quantum. (just when everyone started using DLT too, yet another astute dec business decision :-). dec now just buy from quantum and rebadge. i'm currently backing up 24G on a 3000/900 using 2 TLZ07s and an exabyte 8505, and am going to change over to a DLT (TZ88N) and 2 exabyte 8505s instead, after doing some research. [i wanted to get 2 DLTs, but we can't afford it :-(] i *really* like the DLT as a backup solution if you can afford it. it appears to be faster, more capacity and more robust than exabyte and way third, dat. the exabyte mammoth isn't proven yet in the market unlike the DLT. -jason -- .jason andrade.......dstc,.pty,.ltd.............jason_at_dstc.edu.au. .sysadmin............gehrmann laboratories......i just wanna be... .phn: 61-7-33654307..university.of.queensland...bluemisty......... .fax: 61-7-33654311..brisbane,.4072,.australia..and barefooted.... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From hl_at_tekla.fi Mon Dec 9 20:58:37 1996 On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Brian James O'Connor wrote: > > currently I'm switching tapes all day with a tlz06 dat drive! Ouch... Hope you don't have anything very valuable on your disks... > > Are the DEC DLT drives as good as the Quantum DLT drives? As far as I know DEC drives ARE Quantum drives - Quantum is the only company making those drives. > > Whew what a grab bag of questions, in general I guess, what do people think > of DLT as the primary backup solution? > General consensus is that they are fast and reliable, although expensive. > > TIA > boc --harald Harald Lundberg <hl_at_tekla.fi>;Tekla Oy,Koronakatu 1,FIN-02210,ESPOO,FINLAND tel +358-{9-8879449work,9-8039489fax,9-8026752,19-2418013res,50-5578303mob) >From hmb_at_rosat.mpe-garching.mpg.de Mon Dec 9 20:26:15 1996 DEC DLT-Tapes are Quantum-Tapes with a better? firmware. The manufacturer is Quantum, only! Sincerely, H. Baumgartner Max-Planck-Institute of Extraterrestrical Physics Karl-Schwarzschildstr. 1 85740 Garching, Germany H. Baumgartner hmb_at_mpe-garching.mpg.de +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From alan_at_nabeth.cxo.dec.com Mon Dec 9 19:51:44 1996 >Are the DEC DLT drives as good as the Quantum DLT drives? Aside from the ones built before we sold our tape and disk business to Quantum, our DLT drives are Quantum's DLT drives. Today, Quantum builds all DLT drives, just like Exabyte builds all 8mm drives. The main difference is in firmware, which may be as little as changing the SCSI Inquiry data or as much as offering different compression algorithms, different error handling, etc. The other difference, is qualification and testing. Our operating system groups have trouble keeping up with the devices that other groups in Digital sell, much less those sold by 3rd parties. The advantage of a Digital drive is that can feel confident that it will work, if we say it is supported. You don't get any sort of guarantee with a random 3rd party drive, which is basically what the Quantum version is; untested. >What are your experiences with using Quantum DLTs with a Alphaserver? >and apart from the usual UNIX tools(dump,tar) what is the best s/w to >use with the DLT's , this must include the capablity for restoring >from a total system crash.(ie if the root partition is fried do I have to >restore with dump, and am I stuck with having to use the tlzo6 to do this) If your root file system backup is on a DLT tape, there's no reason you can restore it from that device. For root file system backups and sometimes /usr and /var, using the simplest, supported backup tool is often best since other tools won't exist on a standalone system. Dump is probably best and for the little space used by a root file system, quite adequate to the task. The advantages any flavor of DLT drive has over 4mm and 8mm drives are speed, capacity and reliability. Dump can pretty steadily write to the TZ87 class drive (10 GB native) at around 800 KB/sec to 1 MB/sec. For the TZ88 class drives (20 GB native) it can go faster, but may be more limited by the drive the data is coming from. Tar (and cpio) work well for large files, but slow down when lots of small file have to be saved. For small files, the limiting factor becomes how quickly the files can be opened and close, not how quickly they can be read. Digital sells a version of Legato's Networker, which is well suited for backups in networked client/server environments. The single server version of this has been included with the base Digital UNIX software since about V3.2. I'm sure the major 3rd party backup products have all tested with DLT drives. >What about libraries? We sell four classes of DLT based library/loader; 5 slot, single drive loaders (TZ875, TZ885), 7 slot, single drive loaders (TZ877, TZ887), 48 slot, 4 drive libraries (TL810, TL812) and 176 to 264 slot, 3-6 drive libraries (TL820, TL822, TL826). All are reasonably well- behaved and all should be shipping with software to control the library; the Media Robot Utility. >Whew what a grab bag of questions, in general I guess, what do people think >of DLT as the primary backup solution? I use a TZ87 on my ULTRIX V4.4 workstation, a TZ85 on my previous file server and TZ877 on current file server. I think all the primary backup devices on larger system in our facility are DLT based. A few individual workstations may have 4mm RDAT instead, but those typically get backed up over the network if at all. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From wolf_at_pasteur.fr Mon Dec 9 18:19:10 1996 Brian James O'Connor: > Are the DEC DLT drives as good as the Quantum DLT drives? They are the same : DEC sold its disks and tape section to Quantum. > What are your experiences with using Quantum DLTs with a Alphaserver? > and apart from the usual UNIX tools(dump,tar) what is the best s/w to > use with the DLT's , this must include the capablity for restoring > from a total system crash.(ie if the root partition is fried do I have to > restore with dump, and am I stuck with having to use the tlzo6 to do this) We use Networker on a Odetics robotics with 4 DLT 4000 drives (this is equivalent to the DEC TL-812 jukebox). I believe that's too much for your storage capacity yet. -- Christophe Wolfhugel -+- SIS, Institut Pasteur, Paris Boulot : wolf_at_pasteur.fr, $HOME : wolf_at_schnok.fr.net +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From furukawa_at_almond0.kek.jp Tue Dec 10 12:14:15 1996 Hello Brian, >>> On Mon, 09 Dec 1996 17:45:37 +1100, "Brian James O'Connor" <boc_at_ironbark.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au> wrote; > Are the DEC DLT drives as good as the Quantum DLT drives? > > What are your experiences with using Quantum DLTs with a Alphaserver? > and apart from the usual UNIX tools(dump,tar) what is the best s/w to > use with the DLT's , this must include the capablity for restoring > from a total system crash.(ie if the root partition is fried do I have to > restore with dump, and am I stuck with having to use the tlzo6 to do this) I'm using a 7-cartridge changer of DLT4000 (40GB x 7) from Quantum without any problems. Actually DLT was developed at DEC and DEC sold the division to Quantum. Thus they are the same devices. Until recently DEC didn't support 40GB drives in the software. However, there are no differences between 40GB and 20GB drives. I use software (NSR) for (20GB x 7) drive and it works for (40GB x 7) drive. So they (DEC and Quantum, 20GB and 40GB) are compatible. Bye, Kazuro. ----- Kazuro FURUKAWA <kazuro.furukawa_at_kek.jp> (or <furukawa_at_kek.jp>) Linac, Natl. Lab. for High Energy Physics (KEK), Japan +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Huw Davies <H.Davies_at_latrobe.edu.au> Brian, > we are considering moving to a DLT drive to backup a rapidly >growing raid array on a AS 2100(4/200). >Currently its at 12GB, but once we bring the other two ports in to >use that will probably grow to: > >swxcr 230 raid array(three port pci) >7x2GB 12GB(current) >7x4GB 24GB >7x4GB 24GB > ----- > 60GB at least > >currently I'm switching tapes all day with a tlz06 dat drive! > >Are the DEC DLT drives as good as the Quantum DLT drives? They are the same thing - Digital sold the rights to manufacture DLT drives to Quantum. >What are your experiences with using Quantum DLTs with a Alphaserver? >and apart from the usual UNIX tools(dump,tar) what is the best s/w to >use with the DLT's , this must include the capablity for restoring >from a total system crash.(ie if the root partition is fried do I have to >restore with dump, and am I stuck with having to use the tlzo6 to do this) We do all backups for Unix systems under our control to one DLT drive attached to an Ultrix box (soon to be a Digital Unix box) using public domain software known as amanda. We have restored complete systems from tape using amanda. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies_at_latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From Raja Nagaraja, ACTEW Corp, Canberra, Australia We use DEC DLT to backup data from Alpha 8200 and 2100 an dit is reliable. We use vdump and tar. There is no problem. Raja Nagaraja, ACTEW Corp, Canberra, Australia +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >From breree_at_ozemail.com.au Tue Dec 10 22:19:19 1996 Brian, we are using the DEC DLT drive with the 6 tape stacker. We get our daily backup onto 2 tapes, with about 35 GB compresses on each. Total backup time is about 8-10 hours, and the backup runs at about 2-3MB/second. We use the NSR utilities to do our backups and to manage our tapes. Day-to-day restores are very easy due to the indexing provided by the nsr stuff - we restore a 10G database comprising about 3 save sets in about 3 hours. We also have a DAT drive to which we do dumps of the root, usr and nsr binaries and indexes. We use the clone feature of advfs to do our database backups - very handy. Just down the DB, clone, backup the clone and then unclone. Oh yes, the DLT is in a Storageworks enclosure, connected to an 8200. Sorry, I don't know all the model numbers and software titles off hand, but drop me a line if you like. Brett. -- Brett Rees Unix Systems Administrator email: breree_at_ozemail.com.au (preferred), breree_at_accsoft.com.au phone: +61-414-210-194 home page: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~breree/ (old and outdated ...) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (NOTE THE FOLLOWING IS A SUMMARY ON A RELATED QUESTION) From: waldorf!karl_at_uunet.uu.net (Karl E. Liliestedt) Thanks to: nabeth.cxo.dec.com!alan "William H. Magill" <isc.upenn.edu!magill> jbsvax.eksystems.com!barnwell (Barnwell_at_eksystems.com voice 508-303-6905) Harald Lundberg <tekla.fi!hl> jason andrade <dstc.edu.au!jason> --------------------- From: nabeth.cxo.dec.com!alan 2. I've used one (a little) on a DEC OSF/1 V1.3 system... The TZ88 is supported on all the DEC 3000 family starting with V3.2D. If you can upgrade (V3.2D-1 is a set of collected patches), you won't have any trouble with support. It is very likely that it will just work on V3.2C and you won't need to worry about it. 3. You should check the product information for the TZ88 to verify that it supports writing CompacTape III at the density used by the TZ85. It should be able to read them, but may not be able to write them. I don't recall. --------------------- From: "William H. Magill" <isc.upenn.edu!magill> Digital sold off their magnetics divison to Quantum over a year ago.... So, Quantum is the only manufacturer of DLT drives today, as Extabyte is the only manufacturer of 8mm drives. Everybody puts their own skin on the devices. We use MTI drives. Historically 8mm, but we are just puting an MTI Infinity 1530 Tape library into service - 28 slots/Breece Hill robotics/two 20-40 DLT tape drives. These two drives are "vanilla" Quantums and are running hapilly on a kzpaa under 3.2D. We are using the SCSI_CAM layered product (which is probably necessary for the Jukebox, but not the drives, but I don't know.) We're driving the whole thing with NSR 4.2a. [lead time on the 20/40 cartidges (Cartridge Tape IV) is now 8-12 weeks!!] --------------------- From: jbsvax.eksystems.com!barnwell (Barnwell_at_eksystems.com voice 508-303-6905) give quantum a call as I think the tz87-tz88 is built by them after DEC sold its stoarge group (disks and tapes) to quantum. JB --------------------- From: Harald Lundberg <tekla.fi!hl> On Tue, 10 Dec 1996, Karl Liliestedt wrote: > > 2) Has anybody had any experience using a TZ88 on a 3000 300LX? Is > the tape drive really not certified for this system and, if it not, > will it be in the near future? I think the 88 would probably work, but I think a 300LX is a bit slow for the TZ88. It has a speed of 2.5Mb/s, which I think you cannot reach unless you have a dedicated scsibus for it. I've been able to get about 3.5Mb/s max on my 300's. So to get 2.5 Mb/s you'd need to get 5Mb/s trhough your scsi bus. If you don't get full speed the drive won't stream. > > --harald --------------------- From: jason andrade <dstc.edu.au!jason> In dstc.mail.alpha-osf-managers you write: >I am currently running Digital UNIX 3.2C on 2 Alpha 3000 300LX systems >with 16 GB of disk spread across the Alpha systems and a VAXstation. >Our current backup scheme utilizes 8mm tape and I would like it replaced >with a DLT drive. >DEC Direct indicates that the TZ88 is not certified for this system. On >a TZ87, they list an "invalid shipping lead time" which the sales >person says this usually indicates that the part is being phased out. >They are trying to determine if this is the case with the TZ87 drive. >1) Does anybody know for sure that the TZ87 is being phased out? >2) Has anybody had any experience using a TZ88 on a 3000 300LX? Is > the tape drive really not certified for this system and, if it not, > will it be in the near future? one reason it might not be `certified' is that you *really* need to put your DLT on a separate scsi bus. the 300 series only shipped with the single scsi bus (unlike the 400/500/600/700/800/900 series machines which had 2 separate ones). if you bought the PMAZ-C (i think) dual scsi tc controller and threw the dlt on it, i can't see why it wouldn't work. i wouldn't get the 87 myself.. the 88 has been out for a while now and dec are soon going to ship the TZ89 (otherwise known by quantum as the DLT7000 - 35/70G) -jason --------------------- I finally heard back from DEC Direct. They did confirm that an "invalid shipping lead time" on the TZ87 meant that they were discontinuing selling the unit. Before I received their call, I had come to the conclusion from reading the replys from everybody that I would be better off with the TZ88. The discounted price I got from DEC for a new TZ88 vs the price of a Quantum TZ87 equivalent also helped me make up my mind. I am not worried about the speed of it right now because it will mainly be used for nightly backups of my systems. We will be phasing out the VAXstation soon and possibly replacing it with a more powerful Alpha. If the new system doesn't automatically come configured with a TZ88 (or better), then I will move the one I bought from the 3000 300LX to that system. A sales person at Gemini Digital Products Corp. (www.geminidigital.com) indicated that she can get the CompacTape IV (20/40GB) tapes in a matter of 1-2 weeks instead of 2-3 months. --------------------- The original question was: > > Date: Tue, 10 Dec 96 15:41 EST > Subject: DLT for an Alpha 3000 300LX > > I am currently running Digital UNIX 3.2C on 2 Alpha 3000 300LX systems > with 16 GB of disk spread across the Alpha systems and a VAXstation. > Our current backup scheme utilizes 8mm tape and I would like it replaced > with a DLT drive. > > DEC Direct indicates that the TZ88 is not certified for this system. On > a TZ87, they list an "invalid shipping lead time" which the sales > person says this usually indicates that the part is being phased out. > They are trying to determine if this is the case with the TZ87 drive. > > 1) Does anybody know for sure that the TZ87 is being phased out? > > 2) Has anybody had any experience using a TZ88 on a 3000 300LX? Is > the tape drive really not certified for this system and, if it not, > will it be in the near future? > > 3) Is there some other tape drive alternative I should be looking > at compatible with a TZ85? (A client has a TZ85 so it would be > convenient if I could exchange data in this format). > Thanks for the help. Karl E. Liliestedt karl_at_msdc.com Medical Systems Development Corporation Atlanta, GA Thanks again to all who replied boc -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Brian O'Connor, Unix Systems Consultant Latrobe University,Bendigo boc_at_ironbark.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au ------------------------------------------------------------Received on Mon Dec 16 1996 - 09:10:08 NZDT
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