Hello,
A lot of responses ! Strange, I could not find anything useful on the Web.
Anyway, I think that the CD option will have to be excluded. Because of the
I/O badwidth requirements to master a CD, I would probably have to buy an
extra SCSI card + a disk, or do the mastering on another machine.
The alternative is something like a WORM or other kind of optical disk (but
they are NOT cheap) or a tape library. I don't like the tapes too much
because it is a real pain if you want to verify that your data is
completely readable after you've archived it...
Thanks to all who replied.
Here is my original post as well as the answers:
----------- POST ----------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
We have a new requirement here. We will have to archive lots of stuff
OFFLINE for perpetual storage. We have the option of archiving to tapes
(We have a TZ88 and a TZ87) or on CD-ROM. The problem is that we will have
to keep 2 copies of the TAPES or CD-ROM in case one of the copies would be
lost/damaged/etc...
There are other consideration like the cost of it. TK88 tapes are not
cheap. I was wondering if the cd-writer is a viable alternative to it.
Also, the archived stuff will be used by end users under DU AND Windows/DOS
boxes, that's why I find the CD alternative attractive.
Does anyone have experience with a CD-WRITER for DU ?
Manufacturer/Model that works WELL with an Alpha 2100/RM ?
Cost ?
Ease of use ?
Possibility of creating ISO9660 CD's readable by UNIX and Windows/DOS ?
Software Needed ? Cost of the software ?
Hardware Needed ?
We have ALPHA 2100/RM's, they both have an internal SCSI BUS as well as
KZPSA controller hooked to 2 HSZ40 controllers in dual redundant config.
Part of the archived stuff will be kept online on a RAIDSET, from time to
time, we will put some of it online to TAPE or CD. I would like to know if
I can fit the CD-WRITER into one of the ALPHAS on the internal SCSI bus, if
the CD solution is retained.
I'm new to CD-R and would also like to know if it is easy to create a
master with today's software under digital UNIX.
If anyone has other suggestions that work well, your comments are welcome.
Meanwhile, I will check with DEC website for the marketing info...
Thanks
--------- ANSWERS ---------------------------------------------------------
From: Sarah McKneally <sarah_at_beryl.biotech.cdc.gov>
To: dallaire_at_total.net
Subject: CD-R
Contact michael.leon_at_ymi.com for information about CD-Studio.
(ymi=Young Minds, Inc.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: torben.leifsen_at_astro.uio.no
To: Guy Dallaire <dallaire_at_total.net>
cc: torben.leifsen_at_astro.uio.no
Subject: Re: CD-Writer and Digital UNIX question
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 97 10:49:08 +0100
X-Mts: smtp
> Does anyone have experience with a CD-WRITER for DU ?
> Manufacturer/Model that works WELL with an Alpha 2100/RM
We use a Yamaha CDR100 with software called GEAR from Elektroson
(
http://www.elektroson.com/). I know the Gear software supports several
other CD-R players as well.
> Cost ?
Depends on writing speed. The Yamaha has 4X read/write speed. We payed
the equivalent of about $1500, but prices has gone down steadily. The
2X players are cheaper.
> Ease of use ?
Yes.
> Possibility of creating ISO9660 CD's readable by UNIX and Windows/DOS ?
Yes. Also with Rock Ridge extensions for long unix filenames.
> Software Needed ? Cost of the software ?
I am not sure what they charge for Gear now.
> Hardware Needed ?
Writing CD's at 4X speed requires a SCSI bus that is not heavily loaded. On
our system we have a dedicated SCSI bus for the CDR and a staging disk where
the master is created before writing to the CD.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hakkila_at_maa.nls.fi (Matti Hakkila, MML/MAA/TEKE, puh. +358-(0)20 541
5179, +358-(0)400-486285)
To: dallaire_at_total.net
Subject: Re: CD-Writer and Digital UNIX question
X-Vms-To: SMTP%"dallaire_at_total.net"
Hi!
>Does anyone have experience with a CD-WRITER for DU ?
I have Yamaha CDR100 and PIONEER DRM5004X.
Pioneer is jukebox with 500 slots, one CDR and two CDROM devices.
My computer is AlphaStation 255 4/233 and OS v3.2D-1.
CDR software is GEAR MM v3.23.
Cost in Yamaha 1000$, Pioneer 10000$ and GEAR 2000$.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy, I use a YAMAHA crwriter on an Alphaserver 1000A with 130 Gig of data.
We use the GEAR-software and can make a lot of different formats.
ISO9660, rockridge, DA, Multisession etc. You can specify formats so W95
can read them without problem.
Filenames of about 60 characters are no problem.
Gr. Kees Bol
Agricultural University Wageningen
The Netherlands
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tom Webster <webster_at_ssdpdc.mdc.com>
To: dallaire_at_total.net
Subject: Re: CD-Writer and Digital UNIX question
Content-Md5: ph366qGyFHcQELMG2KqtcA==
I don't think that CD-R is going to fill your needs. We looked at this
for a while and discovered a couple of things:
1. While writing data to the CD, nothing can be allowed to distract the
system. One buffer underflow results in a ruined disk. Generally this
means you need to:
a. Make sure the system you are recording on isn't being used for much else
b. Ensure the system disks are on a seperate SCSI controller than the
staging
disk and the CD-R drive.
c. You need to stage the files on a disk of approximately the same size as
the CD, then defrag and optimize the files as much as possible.
2. Mutli-session CD-R disks generally don't work worth a damn. Figure that
when you burn a disk, you have burnt it -- no going back later to add
more data.
I think you are looking for something more along the lines of MO or WORM
drives
that are designed to be written to little bits at a time. The problem is
that
this is an odd time in the industry, eveyone is waiting for DVD to come out
(while the Hollywood types argue about mandatory encryption schemes to
protect their royalties). DVD is supposed to do everything you could
possibly
want and nobody wants to get stuck with older generation hardware (and
conversely
nobody really wants to try out the DVD 1.0 offerings for mission critical
stuff).
MO and WORM drives are generally funky formats physical formats, so you
wouldn't
be able to distribute to the desktop users. On the other hand, if you want to
do this 'right', NSR's archiving modules do support WORM and MO drives.
Get a
pair of drives (or even better jukes!) and let your users build archive
sets to
be written tot the optical drives. NSR will allow you to configure platters
as 'clones' of the archive platters, giving you redundant copies. This has
the
benifits of centralizing access to the archives, via the net, and supports
UNIX, NT, Win, and Mac clients.
If ISO9660 comapatability is a big need, you might want to rethink the
process
and look at archiving for milestones -- i.e. Master a CD (or a couple) for
each
quarter's archive data. You might also want to look at a low-end
workstation,
like an AS200 or AS255 to do the mastering.
Just my $0.02.
BTW - We are using a TL812 (4 drives in the unit) to do backups and archiving
using NSR. Archives are written to a seperate group of tapes from backups
and a clone of the archive is written to an 'archive clone' tape when the
archive is written.
The only downside I've seen is that archive contents are not browsable. The
user gets to enter a 1024 character description, but other than that each
save set is pretty much a black box.
Tom
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
Young Mind of America sells CD-R software for DU.
I do not have any first hand experience.
Arun Sanghvi
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy - Here's a summary I posted awhile ago on CD burners in general. I had the
Young Minds folks in, the big advantage of their equipment is that is uses a
dedicated box that appears to the OS as an 8mm tape drive, hence no special
drivers are required, and the box takes care of data flow. See their web site
as noted in summary.
FYI - Jeff Stelzner
> Manufacturer/Model that works WELL with an Alpha 2100/RM ?
> Cost ?
> Ease of use ?
> Possibility of creating ISO9660 CD's readable by UNIX and Windows/DOS ?
> Software Needed ? Cost of the software ?
> Hardware Needed ?
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:42:19 -0800 ()
From: Jeff Stelzner <jeffs_at_esca.com>
To: DU Managers <alpha-osf-managers_at_ornl.gov>
Subject: SUMMARY: CD burner [CD-R] technology for DU
Thanks for all the good feedback:
Randy Hayman <haymanr_at_icefog.sois.alaska.edu>
Dave Golden <golden_at_falcon.invincible.com>
Paul Henderson <pgh_at_unx.dec.com>
Dave Chapman david.w.chapman_at_ussev.mail.abb.com
Briefly:
Vendor Info Responses
Young Minds www.ymi.com 2
GEAR/Electroson ? 2
We are talking with the Young Minds folks at this point, they also support
Windows NT, which is of interest as well.
Cheers - Jeff Stelzner
==========================================================================
>> From: "Randy M. Hayman" <haymanr_at_icefog.sois.alaska.edu>
If you'ld like a third option, get a Young Minds CD-Studio (we've had one
since 5/95). It allows you to do both of your other options, it has a Motif
interface and command-line interface. I've cut disks for Macintosh, Windows,
other Unices, and a long time ago, I created an emergency bootable disk for
Digital UNIX (v3.0B era)...
>> From: Dave Golden <golden_at_falcon.invincible.com>
This is what we use (a Yamaha CDR 100) with the GEAR software.
The GEAR stuff comes with a special driver. It works, just make sure that you
have plenty of local disk storage for the master data (I accidentally burned
one ROM using data via NFS and created a coaster). If you have a spare disk
you can use it to burn UFS disks which can be made bootable.
The Yamaha is a 4x drive but it still takes a while to write and verify a full
disk image. I'd carefully consider that if you plan on making a medium to
large number of disks. We do some low volume customer kit distribution with
ours but the folks that burn the disks get pretty bored doing it. Then there
is the labelling issue... Overall it works as advertised.
>> From: Paul Henderson <pgh_at_unx.dec.com>
We use a Young Minds CD burner here with success.
>> From: david.w.chapman_at_ussev.mail.abb.com
I have a Pinnacle RCD-1000 CD-R drive. I'm also using a software package
called "GEAR" from Elektroson. I have had not been able to write a CD with
this combination! Pinnacle and Elektroson do not have any answers. (If you
can get in touch with them!)
Most people tell me to try a Sony or Yamaha drive.
[original post follows]
> What are people using to write CDs from Digital Unix? There seem to be two
> approaches:
>
> 1. Network CD server [NFS]
>
> 2. Local SCSI-attached units
>
> I'd like to know pros/cons and experiences. Are any special drivers
required?
> We are looking to create software distribution kits for customers. I imagine
> the local device approach would allow for making bootable CDs, which
might be
> useful in some circumstances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Does anyone have experience with a CD-WRITER for DU ?
We use a Yamaha 102 drive here (double speed). We don't use it too heavily
though (~100 CD's in 2 years).
> Manufacturer/Model that works WELL with an Alpha 2100/RM ?
The above mentiod worked fine so far.
> Cost ?
About 3k startup (it was *than* -- now it should be cheaper). About $8
for the media (if you buy 50 a time).
> Ease of use ?
Installation was a pain because we also have an 18 CD jukebox, and the
CDR drivers use the same low level drivers. The install scripts were
not prepared for this.
> Possibility of creating ISO9660 CD's readable by UNIX and Windows/DOS ?
ISO9660 -- yes. Long file names -- no. Actually you can create
RockRidge CD's with long filenames which will be readable on Unix, Mac,
etc. Bill Gates decided to use propreitary format. This makes it impossible
to have a CD with long filenames that is readable on Unix *and* dos machines.
> Software Needed ? Cost of the software ?
Gear was the only choice at that time. Text based (curses), simple, but
works (early versions had some bugs). Once you learn it (assuming you
just want to store files) it's easy, like:
newvol data1 ISO 74
cp -r /data/tobesaved
write
> Hardware Needed ?
Be prepared to buy a SCSI card. I had a problem with a 1000A box
where practically any external device violated the SCSI bus length
for the on-board controller. Cheap (narrow single channel), but
takes a PCI slot. The drive *has to be* on a normal SCSI bus (i.e.
no RAID controller, etc.).
You will need a *sustained* I/O of ~250k/sec (a single RZ28 can do
about 2700k/s). If the machine is heavily loaded this may be a problem
(i.e. if you don't provide this throughput, the CD recording session
fails). I had one failure in 2 years...
Gyula
Guy Dallaire
dallaire_at_total.net
"God only knows if god exists"
Received on Thu Mar 20 1997 - 16:26:06 NZST